Non-road maps

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weiaun
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Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:11 pm

Non-road maps

Postby weiaun » Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:36 am

Hello all:

It's a great feeling starting something fresh. Thanks antyong.

I'd like to make a suggestion - why don't we create a separate layer for recreational maps with relevance for non-road users such as hikers and cyclists and campers?

This would contain trails, paths, camps sites, mountain peaks, water sources, rivers which won't be of much interest to drivers. Keeping it semi-separate (perhaps a separate mp file ending up as a separate transparent .img; yet still included together with MFM) will keep it from hindering (affecting routing/layering/cluttering/duplicating) and being hindered by the road maps. Garmin themselves maintain separate road maps (city navigator) and 'topo' maps.

I've tried to contribute towards this - starting with a map of a little village in Sarawak called Bario - which, combined with readily compile-able topographic data from the USGS, is okay as a start. I contributed this to MSM but only a couple of the main paths were incorporated. I don't blame them because the bulk of it is just not relevant to drivers - the only vehicles there have been flown in or sampan-ed in in pieces.

At the minimum, perhaps we could decide on some standards as to how a recreational 'layer' can be superimposed on MFM without affecting it? Then at least hobbyists like me can have a template for contributions. I'm sure a lot of people have tracks of hikes, etc somewhere on their hard disks - just waiting to see the light of day.

I'd also like to promote my compilation of the USGS topographic data into .img files as it would be wasted effort if it was unused - see http://maps.three15.org/. One crucial design objective was to be compatible with MSM (as a transparent layer, with sensible layering/zoom levels). As it took literally days to weeks to compile, I hope whatever layering is decided in the new MFM will not break it. Having said that, I still have the original mp files and it could be recompiled (by anyone) to whatever new standard is decided (perhaps even tiling according to state borders?). Like MFM - the topographic map is free.

I'd be quite excited if there was a recreational GPS map of Malaysia. Then we wouldn't just have to think about mapping roads which have been mapped before but can open up a new frontier in the maturity of GPS maps of Malaysia and celebrate a victory for the 'free' model of developing maps.

weiaun

Here's a prototype map (of G Murud):

G Murud.png

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antyong (retired)
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Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:42 am
Location: Acquiring satellites....

Re: Non-road maps

Postby antyong (retired) » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:30 am

MFM will be going towards the direction of multiple map layers. Therefore your proposal is interesting indeed.

Maybe you can take the lead and send me a sample of what you have in mind? =D>

chinwy
Regional Mapper
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Kuantan, Pahang

Re: Non-road maps

Postby chinwy » Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:12 am

In my opinion, much as the bulk of GPS are used in fossil fuel vehicles, trackers and cyclist do make up a %, and to see its area of intrest being incoprated into MFM future maps is sweet!

There are a couple of inportant area that has to be addressed ie topo contour intervals. I know you can get down to very close contours with no effort from STRM database for anywhere in the world. eg Trackers may need closer contour intervals than others. The issue is putting in too much detail will baloon the map into an impossible size and dead slow processing speed.

Custom poi and polygons will be the next to address. I had quite a bit of false start on my Sungai Lembing maps. Looks like I will have write off all the data and start from scratch if necessary. Perhaps some experience mappers can enlighten me on this area.

rcmaps
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Location: New Zealand (Garmin GPSMAP 60CSX)
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Re: Non-road maps

Postby rcmaps » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:57 am

chinwy wrote:In my opinion, much as the bulk of GPS are used in fossil fuel vehicles, trackers and cyclist do make up a %, and to see its area of intrest being incoprated into MFM future maps is sweet!

There are a couple of inportant area that has to be addressed ie topo contour intervals. I know you can get down to very close contours with no effort from STRM database for anywhere in the world. eg Trackers may need closer contour intervals than others. The issue is putting in too much detail will baloon the map into an impossible size and dead slow processing speed.

Custom poi and polygons will be the next to address. I had quite a bit of false start on my Sungai Lembing maps. Looks like I will have write off all the data and start from scratch if necessary. Perhaps some experience mappers can enlighten me on this area.

I have had quite a bit of experience constructing topo maps and you're right, need to keep the img file size down to manageable size so as not to slow down GPS screen rendering. I find on a GPSMAP Xtreme series, file tile sizes of no more than 5Mb works best. Just need to play around with the tre size and split the maps accordingly.

Just let me know if you need advise.

I'm actually quite keen on topo maps overlaid over road maps as well!
http://www.rcmaps.nzopengps.org/
Home of Free auto routing Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, New Zealand Topo, Samoa, Niue Garmin GPS maps

chinwy
Regional Mapper
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Kuantan, Pahang

Re: Non-road maps

Postby chinwy » Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:19 am

Would your experience be construction topo from DNMM5101 series maps?

I got the latest topo of Kuantan town (sheet 104)and there are now additonal grids added on the side. Suppose to be aligned to our GPS reference! according to the JU people at the counter.

It is skewed and put the map no longer a rectangle tiled! It makes sense as when I tried to use ref POI to pin down the scanned image on OZIE I had to do some funny offset which does not seems to make sense initially. Makes life really difficult when I had to cut down the map to fit my scanner then stitch it back (an almpst impossible task). Drawing hard lines on it does not help as hell knows you can never get a straight line drawn with pencil an paper and to make matters worst, the scanner can also skew the image - may be due to JPG compression ( Have yet to do a test on that).

I sometimes make use of the STRM topo as rough alignment - espiceally when there are no roads or GPS data to work with.

Yes, would very much appreciate any morsle of experience you have.

rcmaps
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Location: New Zealand (Garmin GPSMAP 60CSX)
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Re: Non-road maps

Postby rcmaps » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:29 pm

No, sorry, I mainly work from ESRI data into MP and then IMG format.

We're lucky in NZ with good and/or cheap government topo data, so just need to import shp files into Mapedit. The trick then is to decide where and how much to split the maps to enable compilation of efficient sized img files.

Sorry can't help with converting raster to vector.
http://www.rcmaps.nzopengps.org/
Home of Free auto routing Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, New Zealand Topo, Samoa, Niue Garmin GPS maps

chinwy
Regional Mapper
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Kuantan, Pahang

Re: Non-road maps

Postby chinwy » Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:11 pm

Yes, folks in NZ are very lucky. You guys can access the entire database (NZ, and it is really BIG!!) that not only show all the topo and river but down to the lot and who owns it and how much the property and land cost!!!

BTW I am residing in NZ, Hamilton at the moment. Anyting I can do to contribute to your maps? Great work you guys are doing for the community.

rcmaps
VIP Mapper
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:45 am
Location: New Zealand (Garmin GPSMAP 60CSX)
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Re: Non-road maps

Postby rcmaps » Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:29 pm

chinwy wrote:Yes, folks in NZ are very lucky. You guys can access the entire database (NZ, and it is really BIG!!) that not only show all the topo and river but down to the lot and who owns it and how much the property and land cost!!!

BTW I am residing in NZ, Hamilton at the moment. Anyting I can do to contribute to your maps? Great work you guys are doing for the community.


Unbelievable! I'm in Hamilton as well ! :lol:

It's free but getting it is like extracting teeth! So, most of us pay a few hundred $s to get it on a DVD.

Actually, we also have street numbering data easily obtainable and it's in the maps now!

Right now, I'm collecting traffic lights POIs. (Sorry Hamilton already done!)
http://www.rcmaps.nzopengps.org/
Home of Free auto routing Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, New Zealand Topo, Samoa, Niue Garmin GPS maps

chinwy
Regional Mapper
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Kuantan, Pahang

Re: Non-road maps

Postby chinwy » Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:40 pm

Fortunate for me I got mine free, in cluding any updates. Know someone that subscribes to the database, told they paid a bomb for it annually. Tried loading it once into my computer, practically consumed all the free space it had. Eventually had to uninstall as I do not have much use for it esp when you guys have done such an excellent job in getting all the roads into Garmin format. Would be the day when MFM gets to put address nos into the maps!!! Extremely tall order, never mind getting all the roads into the map.

Not that many treffic lights in Hamilton eh?

Keep me upated if any work needs to be done.

weiaun
Contributor
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:11 pm

Re: Non-road maps

Postby weiaun » Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:26 am

Okay. Here's some thoughts and proposals.

Firstly, it is important to state some of the guiding principles:
1. We have to bear in mind how the maps are used (e.g. car users, the vast majority, shouldn't be inundated with irrelevant data)
2. Flexibility (users can have some control over how their maps will be displayed)
3. Updating can be decentralised (if we decide who is in charge of what kinds of polygons/polylines/points and in which areas, we can work fairly independently without stepping on each others toes).

I propose that we have 4 map layers:

1. A PHYSICAL map layer (principles: contains geographic information relevant to all map users, information here doesn't 'change' - just needs to be added).

Polygons: Water features (sea, lakes, major rivers), Land usage (agricultural land, urban, jungle, marshes), Special areas (national parks, danger areas, restricted areas - like military instalments)
Polylines: Water features (rivers), Borders/Boundaries, Oil/water/power lines
Points: Labels, Airports, Major cities, major geographic features (mountain peaks), Certain water features (big dams)

2. A ROAD map layer (principles: places which can be accessed by road)
Polygons: Man made facilities (uni/schools/shopping centres/airports/sports facilities/zoos)
Polylines: All paved roads, rail, airports, ferries, and features associated with it (bridges, etc), certain unpaved roads intended for road traffic
Points: Shops, sports, transport, services, religion, food, entertainment

3. A TRAIL map layer (principles: would not be of interest to most road users)
Polygons: Campsite areas, conservation areas, certain minor water/geographic features (those inaccessible by road)
Polylines: Trails, paths, certain minor water/geographic features (those inaccessible by road)
Points: Minor geographic/water features (peaks, waterfalls, caves), campsites, huts, water supplies, 'emergency places'

4. A TOPO map layer (principles: contains only contour lines) (perhaps several editions of these based on the sources of data: SRTM, JUPEM, etc; and it's resolution)
Polygons: none
Polylines: contour lines (debate-able: coast lines)
Points: none (debate-able: mountain peaks)

There will be areas of dispute - for example urban parks (e.g. Gasing Hill), minor water/geographic features, and toilets!
I suggest the guiding principle between deciding whether a feature belongs in the ROAD layer vs the TRAIL layers is "accessibility by car". To decide which geographic features belong to the PHYSICAL or the TRAIL layers, I suggest a combination of "visibility from a car" and "who would be updating these kind of features". For the Gasing Hill example, I'd suggest that the physical layer denotes it as a 'park'. The road layer indicates the entrances (by car). The trail layer contains the paths and watchtowers and foot bridges and peaks and the small river. The topo layer contains the contour lines.

Another major issue is how to chop these maps up geographically. I guess this is a balance of considering how the maps are going to be used, how they are going to be updated, and trying to avoid chopping features into pieces. My only suggestion is that perhaps the PHYSICAL layer can be one big map. The TRAIL layer should either follow the ROAD layer or be subsets of the ROAD layer. The TOPO layer - it probably doesn't really matter.

My own personal comment with regards to the sizes of topo tiles is that big sizes (16Mb) seem to run okay superimposed on MSM on my eTrex Legend Cx. Even the smallest microSD card would easily hold everything so I personally just load everything. My gmapsupp is just under 300Mb.

Please also see: http://www.smc.org.uk/ContourMaps.htm for more ideas. They do a similar thing. Might be useful to see how Garmin's own topo maps are done.

Using these 4 layers - we could create useful combinations or maps for different users. Layers 1 and 2 for most road users. Layers 1 and 3 for off-road users. I suspect I'd just load all 4 layers for everything.

The main user group not address by these maps would be marine users - but they have the commercially available bluecharts.

Other more technical details would be which levels to put what sort of data, transparency issues, the map ID.

What do you all think?


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